1 1 NEW JERSEY STATE PLANNING COMMISSION 2 3 _____________________________ 4 In the matter of: Transcript of 5 MONTHLY MEETING Proceedings 6 _____________________________ 7 Computer-aided transcript of New 8 Jersey State Planning Commission Meeting taken 9 stenographically in the above-entitled matter 10 before KAREN L. DeLUCIA, a Certified Shorthand 11 Reporter and Notary Public of the State of New 12 Jersey, at the State House Annex, Committee 13 Room 4, West State St., Trenton, NJ, on 14 Tuesday, May 27, 2003, commencing at 11:15 a.m. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 22 824 West State Street 23 Trenton, New Jersey 08618 24 (609) 989-9199 1-800-368-7652 (TOLL FREE) 25 http://www.renziassociates.com GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: 2 3 4 TIMOTHY TOUHEY, Chairman 5 BRADLEY M. CAMPBELL, Commissioner 6 JOHN ESKILSON, Municipal Official 7 DAVID B. FISHER, Public Member 8 CURTIS FISHER, Governor's Office 9 CHARLES KUPEROS, Commissioner 10 PETER LAZAROPOULOS, Public Member 11 MARILYN LENNON, Public Member 12 JOHN LETTIERE, Commissioner 13 SUSAN BASS LEVIN, Commissioner 14 DANIEL LEVINE, Treasury Designee 15 EDWARD McKENNA, Public Member 16 DONNA PERSON, Public Member 17 GEORGE PRUITT, Public Member 18 WILLIAM WATLEY, Secretary of Commerce 19 20 ALSO PRESENT: 21 ADAM ZELLNER, Office of Smart Growth 22 DANIEL REYNOLDS, D.A.G. 23 WENDY McVICKER, Administrative Assistant 24 25 GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 3 1 I N D E X 2 3 PUBLIC SPEAKERS PAGE 4 PAM McINTOSH 35 5 DON KIRCHHOFFER 36 6 JEFF TITTEL 37 7 THOMAS DALLESSIO 42 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 4 1 MR. REYNOLDS: According to the 2 Open Public Meetings Act, notice of the date, 3 time and place of this meeting have been given 4 by sending written notice to the Secretary of 5 State of the State of New Jersey, and the 6 following newspapers: The Atlantic City Press, 7 The Asbury Park Press, The Bergen Record, The 8 Camden Courier Post, The Home News, The 9 Hunterdon News, New York Star Ledger, The New 10 York Times, the Trentonian and Trenton Times; 11 and further by posting notice of this meeting 12 in the office of the Secretary of State in 13 Trenton, New Jersey. 14 CHAIRMAN TOUHEY: The Pledge 15 Allegiance. 16 (Whereupon, Salute to the American 17 Flag commenced.) 18 CHAIRMAN TOUHEY: Approval of the 19 minutes. 20 MS. McVICKER: Roll call. 21 CHAIRMAN TOUHEY: Roll call, 22 please. 23 MS. McVICKER: Michele Byers? 24 Bradley Campbell? 25 COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL: Here. GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 5 1 MS. McVICKER: John Eskilson? 2 MR. ESKILSON: Here. 3 MS. McVICKER: David Fisher? 4 MR. D. FISHER: Here. 5 MS. McVICKER: Curtis Fisher? 6 MR. C. FISHER: Here. 7 MS. McVICKER: Charles Kuperus? 8 SECRETARY KUPERUS: Here. 9 MS. McVICKER: Peter Lazaropoulos? 10 MR. LAZAROPOULOS: Here. 11 MS. McVICKER: Marilyn Lennon? 12 MS. LENNON: Here. 13 MS. McVICKER: John Lettiere? 14 COMMISSIONER LETTIERE: Here. 15 MS. McVICKER: Susan Bass Levin? 16 COMMISSIONER BASS LEVIN: Here. 17 MS. McVICKER: John McCormac? 18 MR. LEVINE: Daniel Levine for John 19 McCormac. 20 MS. McVICKER: Edward McKenna? 21 DR. McKENNA: Here. 22 MS. McVICKER: Gary Paparozzi? 23 Donna Pearson? 24 MS. PEARSON: Here. 25 MS. McVICKER: George Pruitt? GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 6 1 DR. PRUITT: Here. 2 MS. McVICKER: Dr. William Watley? 3 SECRETARY WATLEY: Here. 4 MS. McVICKER: Tim Touhey? 5 CHAIRMAN TOUHEY: Here. 6 Approval of the minutes. 7 DR. McKENNA: So moved. 8 MR. ESKILSON: Second. 9 MS. McVICKER: Bradley Campbell? 10 COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL: Yes. 11 MS. McVICKER: John Eskilson? 12 MR. ESKILSON: Yes. 13 MS. McVICKER: David Fisher? 14 MR. D. FISHER: Yes. 15 MS. McVICKER: Curtis Fisher? 16 MR. C. FISHER: Yes. 17 MS. McVICKER: Charles Kuperus? 18 SECRETARY KUPERUS: I had some 19 other amendments. Like the Mayor of Montague 20 is Buto not Budo. And some other things that 21 I'd just like everybody's consent before you 22 ask them, but yes. My vote is yes. 23 MS. McVICKER: Peter Lazaropoulos? 24 MR. LAZAROPOULOS: Yes. 25 MS. McVICKER: Marilyn Lennon? GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 7 1 MS. LENNON: Yes. 2 MS. McVICKER: John Lettiere? 3 COMMISSIONER LETTIERE: Yes. 4 MS. McVICKER: Susan Bass Levin? 5 COMMISSIONER BASS LEVIN: Yes. 6 MS. McVICKER: Daniel Levine? 7 MR. LEVINE: Yes. 8 MS. McVICKER: Edward McKenna? 9 DR. McKENNA: Yes. 10 MS. McVICKER: Donna Person? 11 MS. PEARSON: Yes. 12 MS. McVICKER: George Pruitt? 13 DR. PRUITT: Yes. 14 MS. McVICKER: William Watley? 15 SECRETARY WATLEY: Yes. 16 MS. McVICKER: Timothy Touhey? 17 CHAIRMAN TOUHEY: Yes. 18 Thank you, everyone. 19 First of all, let me thank the 20 Cabinet Members after a Memorial Day weekend to 21 attend the Commission Meeting. I think it's 22 historic in its nature. 23 The purpose really, approximately 24 30 days ago I had asked your designees for you 25 to attend the meeting to bring some clarity to GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 8 1 the issues. As we know, DEP was out, their 2 plan; we had DOT; we had Agriculture. All of 3 you have been meeting with municipalities. And 4 really what we're trying to unite today is talk 5 about one process, one plan, one state map, and 6 really layout the Cross-acceptance Process. 7 The commission members have been patient and 8 diligent in trying to come to that clarity. So 9 we're talking about a proposed process for 10 Cross-Acceptance and a proposed time line. 11 Obviously we're here today. 12 We will be asking all of the state 13 agencies in a variety, over a period of time - 14 I think November 15 - to provide to the 15 Commission all of the data, layer information, 16 projections, priorities and plans, as a way of 17 creating a partnership with the local 18 municipalities and towns. By November 15 what 19 we're hoping to do is to get all that 20 information from all of the agencies, and then 21 get it out to the counties and the 22 municipalities to react to. Giving them to 23 January 14, 2004, as a way of responding to 24 that information to go through the 25 Cross-Acceptance Process. March 17 we would GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 9 1 release our preliminary plan; and is our goal 2 by March 31, 2004, to actually begin the 3 Cross-Acceptance Process. 4 So we're really looking at 5 providing a kind of bottom-up approach, as the 6 plan talks about. The potential issues could 7 be policy, could be map, but at the end of the 8 day what we're trying to do, at the direction 9 of the Governor and Governor's commitment to 10 "Smart Growth", is to have one plan, one 11 strategy, working through the Commission as a 12 way to implement "Smart Growth". 13 So that's really what we're here to 14 do today, and the Cabinet Members have come to 15 talk about the process and support it. And so 16 I'm going to ask for a brief report from the 17 Cabinet Members, starting, Charlie, with you, 18 and your institutional history with this 19 Commission, and what you are doing now. 20 SECRETARY KUPERUS: Thank you. 21 And first of all I have to say I 22 have a great deal of respect for everybody that 23 sits around the table having, I guess I've been 24 in this position now twice. I was the only 25 person to leave the Commission, and then have GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 10 1 someone else appointed in my place, then 2 actually come back. You would think I would 3 have learned the first time, you know; but, 4 no. 5 I chaired the Plan Development 6 Process for the first, I guess for six years, 7 if I can add them all together; and as we 8 embark on a Cross-Acceptance Process here, this 9 is going to be a significant time commitment 10 from everybody on the Commission. And from a 11 State agency's standpoint, you can be assured 12 that Agriculture will be at the table bringing 13 what we can bring to the conversation, 14 influencing the conversation as best we can to 15 make sure that the plan reflects what we need 16 to see in agriculture, as well as being nested 17 into the overall State Plan. 18 Having said that, we're working on 19 a strategic targeting project for farmland 20 preservation. I'm sure that Monique Purcell 21 representing us communicated that very 22 clearly. And we have a "Smart Growth" plan for 23 Agriculture building on the 21 policies that we 24 have in the State Plan. And building on the 25 intent and the policy objectives for those GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 11 1 different planning areas. And making sure that 2 we have a strategy that we can not only 3 preserve and protect the farmland, but also 4 have a strategy that sustains the industry here 5 in the State of New Jersey so that we can have 6 a future agriculture, and a viable agriculture 7 in the State of New Jersey. 8 That simply put is what we're doing 9 in the Department. But we recognize that we're 10 in the process, as well. And I'm sure that 11 other state agencies are in the process of 12 updating or doing different things to build 13 their own strategic plans. But what we're 14 doing fits perfectly with the schedule that you 15 have outlined here. And I'm sure that we'll 16 influence it nicely. 17 So we expect Agriculture's "Smart 18 Growth" plan and what we're doing to nest 19 nicely into the overall process that you've 20 outlined here, Mr. Chairman. 21 So thanks for the opportunity to 22 comment. 23 CHAIRMAN TOUHEY: Thank you, 24 Secretary. 25 Commissioner Lettiere. GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 12 1 COMMISSIONER LETTIERE: Thank you, 2 Mr. Chairman. 3 The Department of Transportation 4 takes this responsibility very seriously. On 5 the issues of "Smart Growth" and 6 transportation, we don't see them as either 7 conflicting or contrary. Quite frankly "Smart 8 Growth" is smart transportation. 9 We have done an extraordinary -- 10 going through an extraordinary task over the 11 last year and reviewed our entire 2.5 billion 12 dollar program for its implications on "Smart 13 Growth", both in a positive and a negative 14 sense; and we're going to continue to do that. 15 We've eliminated our capital program on 16 expansion of only four percent. And we're 17 working with the office of Smart Growth in 18 looking at projects that may have adverse 19 implications on "Smart Growth" to determine if 20 the projects can either be changed in some way 21 or eliminated from our program. 22 What we're trying to demonstrate 23 here is that for the first time we're starting 24 to link "Smart Growth" and land use with 25 transportation. And we are very happy GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 13 1 participants in that. Not only on the project 2 side, but also in the areas of access to our 3 highway system. And we've looked at our entire 4 access quota, and we're continuing to do that 5 with the office of Smart Growth, to make it 6 more compliant with the principles of the State 7 Planning Commission, and also the Governor's 8 charge of "Smart Growth". 9 So it's an extraordinary 10 opportunity for us, and we're happy to 11 participate. 12 CHAIRMAN TOUHEY: Thank you, 13 Commissioner. 14 Commissioner Campbell. 15 COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL: Thank you 16 very much, Mr. Chairman. 17 I think this is a great 18 opportunity. As you're aware, at the 19 Department of Environmental Protection we are 20 proceeding on a number of fronts to revamp our 21 regulatory approach to compliment and reinforce 22 and work with the State Planning Commission to 23 end the divide between planners and 24 regulators. That's reflected in aggressive 25 Brownfields Reform package that we announced GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 14 1 last November. It's reflected in enhanced 2 regulatory protection; our drinking water 3 supplies with the Governor's leadership; 4 enhanced protection for wildlife and threatened 5 and endangered species habitat. It's reflected 6 in our move to a tiered approach to regulation; 7 one that incorporates data in a geographic way 8 into our regulatory structure. 9 And I think that this 10 Cross-Acceptance Process will really ensure, 11 just as we're trying to revamp our regulatory 12 approach to better fit the State Planning 13 Commission's objectives, this process will 14 allow us to bring better environmental data to 15 the table to the process. And also will afford 16 municipalities the kind of more robust public 17 process to examine some of these issues in 18 detail. That isn't really possible through the 19 DEP regulatory process. 20 So I see this as really another 21 significant advance; one that for which I think 22 there's a lot of enthusiasm among 23 municipalities; and one of which the Department 24 of Environmental Protection will be a full 25 partner. GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 15 1 CHAIRMAN TOUHEY: Thank, 2 Commissioner, very much. 3 Secretary Watley. 4 SECRETARY WATLEY: Yes. As you're 5 aware, since 1984 UEZ has been the principal 6 incentive of "Smart Growth" activity within 7 Commerce. And so what we are doing simply 8 follows a long standing tradition of tracking, 9 developing, and expanding business with the 10 long view in mind regarding the protection of 11 our environment. 12 Every two weeks our "Smart Growth" 13 implementation team meets presently. Our UEZ 14 people reviewing all UEZ projects for 15 consistency with "Smart Growth" principles. 16 We're also looking to develop financial 17 incentives on the part of our business 18 attraction. Commerce remains strongly 19 committed to this vision regarding "Smart 20 Growth". 21 CHAIRMAN TOUHEY: Thank you, 22 Secretary. 23 Commissioner Levin. 24 COMMISSIONER BASS LEVIN: Good 25 morning. GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 16 1 First I would like to extend all of 2 our condolences to Ed McKenna and his family on 3 the loss of your father. Our thoughts are 4 certainly with you during this difficult time. 5 And I know that I speak for all of the members 6 of this council and the members of this 7 administration. 8 I do want to recognize, as well, 9 the efforts of the staff members of all the 10 various departments that are represented here 11 today. I know that you have all worked long 12 and hard, and will continue to do so to 13 implement the Governor's "Smart Growth" 14 agenda. And I do want to take this opportunity 15 to thank you all for your hard work. You're 16 sitting out in the audience today, but I know 17 that you are really the heart and soul behind 18 so much of what we have been able to 19 accomplish, and what we have yet to do. And on 20 behalf of my fellow Commissioners and the 21 Governor, I do want to say thank you to all of 22 you. 23 To my fellow Commissioners, we have 24 been working along the very first days of this 25 administration to develop and implement a GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 17 1 so-called "Smart Growth" agenda. I want to 2 take this opportunity to note the historic 3 partnerships that have been created in this 4 administration. 5 Through the office of Smart Growth, 6 the State Planning Commission, and all the 7 members of this Commission who give up your 8 time so generously, and to my colleagues in the 9 Cabinet, I want to publicly recognize your 10 accomplishments and achievements to date. 11 Certainly there has been a lot of 12 talk about what "Smart Growth" is and what 13 "Smart Growth" isn't; but I think as you 14 listen to what the Commissioners have said, you 15 will realize that we share a common vision for 16 making New Jersey stronger; making New Jersey 17 better; to build on what we have accomplished 18 in the past; and to enter into a course 19 correction so that we do things better. 20 Today is certainly a significant 21 day for the State Planning Commission, and for 22 that I'm particularly grateful that Secretary 23 Kuperus is here, since he has been a part of 24 this Commission in different ways for such a 25 long period of time; and a significant day for GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 18 1 the State of New Jersey. 2 Today as we talk about a new 3 Cross-Acceptance Process we talk about a "Smart 4 Growth" agenda that really does understand the 5 need for balance. The need to have jobs and 6 economic opportunity that Secretary Watley so 7 aptly encourages through his agency. The need 8 to make sure that we have the right 9 infrastructure in the right places. As 10 Commissioner Lettiere said, smart 11 transportation is "Smart Growth". We need to 12 make sure that we build in the right places so 13 that when we go form here to there we do it in 14 a way that makes sense. And that we maximize 15 all of our opportunities and initiatives in 16 this State. 17 And certainly when we talk about 18 "Smart Growth" and economic development and 19 job preservation, we must be ever mindful of 20 the need to preserve and protect our 21 environmental resources. To Commissioner 22 Campbell and his staff, to all of you who have 23 worked so hard to recognize that we need to be 24 mindful of the precarious balance in our 25 State. And whether it be the Highlands or the GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 19 1 Pinelands or the Meadowlands or anywhere in 2 between, we come together today as part of this 3 Cross-Acceptance Process to take a step forward 4 to make "Smart Growth" a reality. 5 As a former mayor, I certainly 6 understand the intricacies of New Jersey land 7 use on the local level. And I understand the 8 dynamic between municipalities and the county 9 and the state government and the federal 10 government. But as we come together today we 11 do what planners do and elected officials do 12 each day; that is to focus on how to make the 13 town or the county or the initiative work 14 better. All of this work goes on each day, 15 where we look at land rapidly being used up, 16 increased traffic, increased pollution, the 17 results of perhaps bad planning, or perhaps 18 just a failure to recognize the need to bring 19 people together. 20 Governor McGreevey has made a 21 commitment to address "Smart Growth" 22 regionally; to address "Smart Growth" across 23 department lines. And that, indeed, is a 24 historic step. It is imperative that we 25 combine our state planning resources and our GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 20 1 local planning initiative to get a full and 2 complete picture so that we can grow where we 3 should, and preserve what we must. So that we 4 can use the initiatives of Commerce and the 5 resources of the Department of Transportation 6 ever mindful of the agricultural needs of this 7 State, and the environmental issues that 8 confront us on a daily basis. 9 The State Plan and the State Map is 10 a picture of where local government, where 11 county government, where state government wants 12 to grow. We need to make sure that we use that 13 State Map in the best way possible. And I 14 believe that this Cross-Acceptance Process will 15 accomplish that. Bringing to the State Plan 16 Map, bringing to the State Planning Commission, 17 the resources of all of the state departments. 18 To ensure that we have better communication, 19 and to ensure that we do, in fact, change the 20 system. To make it better. To make sure that 21 we bring all of these players to the table, so 22 to speak, to get the very best ideas from all 23 of your agencies. And for that I am personally 24 grateful. 25 In a few moments you'll hear more GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 21 1 talk about the Cross-Acceptance Process and 2 what it means, but it is a unified approach 3 that will create, to use Commission Campbell's 4 words, a predictable system of growth and 5 preservation for our State. A predictable 6 system that will help change and improve the 7 way we plan in New Jersey. 8 I want to just take this 9 opportunity to thank Governor McGreevey for his 10 commitment in working with all of us. For his 11 commitment to bringing us together as partners, 12 whether we represent a municipality, a county, 13 or any other state agencies, so that we can 14 continue to make New Jersey better. 15 And so let me just close by 16 thanking all of you for recognizing that we 17 have a lot of hard work ahead of us. These are 18 not easy issues, and there are no simple 19 solutions. We are on the threshold of a new 20 and exciting chapter for the State Plan in New 21 Jersey, but most importantly we are on the 22 threshold of a new and better way of planning 23 for New Jersey's future. 24 Thank you everyone. 25 CHAIRMAN TOUHEY: Thank you, GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 22 1 Commissioner. 2 We do want to hear from the 3 Commission Members. Let's start with Dr. 4 Pruitt and ago around the room. 5 Dr. Pruitt. 6 DR. PRUITT: I don't have anything 7 to add, Mr. Chairman. 8 MS. PEARSON: I have nothing to add 9 at this particular time. 10 DR. McKENNA: Mr. Chairman, I just 11 want to thank -- I'd really like to thank all 12 the Cabinet Members for being here. 13 I consider this to be a monumental 14 day for New Jersey. I think this shows that 15 New Jersey is taking the lead nationwide as far 16 as planning and dealing with its future. And I 17 want to thank the Governor for his boldness and 18 aggressiveness and coming out and asking 19 everyone to participate in this process. I 20 think it is a monumental day. It also speaks 21 very well of the potential for the future of 22 this State. 23 So I want to offer congratulations 24 to all of the Commissioners, and thank them for 25 being here. GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 23 1 CHAIRMAN TOUHEY: Thank you, Mayor. 2 MR. LAZAROPOULOS. I'd just like to 3 add, I'd like to reemphasize what Commissioner 4 Levin mentioned about a clearer and predictable 5 plan that can be followed by all levels, and 6 all of you who are involved in the planning 7 process. And I'm looking forward to working 8 with the commission to achieve that. 9 MR. D. FISHER: Good morning. 10 When I first walked in today 11 Charlie Kuperus reminded me that I was the only 12 one that voted against the State Plan when it 13 was readopted in March of 2001. And actually I 14 think you and I are the only ones that were on 15 the commission more than two years ago when 16 that action took place. 17 But one of the main reasons why I 18 had a concern about the State Plan the last 19 time around was the fact that I didn't believe 20 that it got to the issue of how we were going 21 to grow in our urban areas, in our older towns, 22 and in the centers that the Commission had 23 identified so clearly in the earlier versions; 24 and that's still my primary concern. 25 And I want to thank the Cabinet GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 24 1 Members for being here today. I want to thank 2 our chairman for kind of taking the bull by the 3 horns and coming up with a schedule that gets 4 us to a Cross-Acceptance Process that involves 5 the county agencies to the extent that we need 6 to bring these issues to the counties and to 7 the municipalities very quickly so that we can 8 reconcile the differences that we have over 9 primarily our objectives of preserving the 10 important parts of this State, but also 11 accommodating the growth that the State Plan 12 talks about, and encouraging affordable housing 13 in places where we need it, as well. 14 I think that the key to this is the 15 November 15th date on the schedule. And I 16 realize this is just a schedule, but when we 17 send out the information to the counties and we 18 ask for input, I think with that we need very 19 specific recommendations in terms of population 20 projections and housing and job projections so 21 that we can accomplish the growth side of the 22 equation. 23 I want to thank Adam Zellner and 24 the staff for helping Tim develop this process, 25 and I encourage the Commission to move forward GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 25 1 with it as quickly as possible. Because as 2 Commissioner Levin mentioned, the course 3 direction that I'm most concerned about is that 4 we bring together the counties and say, look, 5 over the next 20 years if we're going to grow 6 this much, how is that going to fit into your 7 county, and how are the municipalities in your 8 county going to accommodate that level of 9 development, and how is it going to happen, and 10 what infrastructure is necessary and 11 cooperation from all the state agencies is 12 necessary in order to achieve that. 13 So with that I thank my fellow 14 members of the Commission. I know it's a very 15 aggressive schedule; and we've got a lot of 16 work to do in the next ten months. 17 Thanks. 18 CHAIRMAN TOUHEY: Thank you. 19 Commissioner. 20 COMMISSIONER BASS LEVIN: David, I 21 just want to let you know that we -- I already 22 had several meetings with staff from Rutgers to 23 talk with them about doing the types of 24 population projections and data projections 25 that we need to go along with this. So we will GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 26 1 be working on that concurrently with the data 2 information. I'm not sure how they actually 3 end up, but we have already started that part 4 of the process. 5 CHAIRMAN TOUHEY: Curt. 6 MR. C. FISHER: My name is Curtis 7 Fisher. I am the Governor's deputy policy 8 director. And for the last year-and-a-half 9 I've been working very closely and 10 appropriately behind the scenes with all the 11 Cabinet Members on a range of different 12 environmental sprawl initiatives. 13 So I just want to extend my 14 interest in meeting you all and working with 15 you all, as they say, and moving this plan 16 forward. 17 CHAIRMAN TOUHEY: Thank you, Curt. 18 John. 19 MR. ESKILSON: Thank you, Mr. 20 Chairman. 21 I'm struck this morning with the 22 support of the Cabinet Members that we're 23 really making a huge leap forward; but I'm also 24 struck that it's really a leap forward to the 25 start of the process; to the starting line, if GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 27 1 you will. A process that at long last will 2 feature predictability and certainty of 3 outcomes, and will feature an equality among 4 the partners to a various degree, and the 5 quality among municipality government, county 6 government and state agencies. I am excited to 7 be part of that; and I look forward to the 8 coming year to work on Cross-Acceptance. 9 Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Adam 10 for all your hard work, and the members of the 11 Cabinet for being here today and for your 12 support. 13 CHAIRMAN TOUHEY: Thanks, John. 14 Marilyn. 15 MS. LENNON: At this go around -- 16 when the State Plan was first introduced, I 17 think many municipalities and counties 18 participated at varying levels of interest. 19 And I think that for the initial development 20 many municipalities were very active; others 21 just said, oh, this is just another State 22 Plan. And I think now that we're developing 23 this outline for really the Cross-Acceptance, 24 I'd be very surprised if any municipality in 25 the State will be asleep this time around. GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 28 1 I think it's going to be a great 2 process, and I applaud all the efforts that 3 have gone into this. 4 MR. LEVINE: I apologize on behalf 5 of Treasurer McCormac who would have liked to 6 have been here, but is actually testifying 7 right at this moment before the Assembly. 8 Again, on behalf of the Treasurer, 9 we've already had an opportunity to work with 10 most of the agencies, if not all, that are 11 represented here to think about ways of 12 rationalizing State resources to meet "Smart 13 Growth" objectives and to create new programs 14 that can accomplish that end. There are a lot 15 of exciting initiatives. We warmly endorse the 16 program, and look forward to working with 17 everybody here. 18 Thank you. 19 CHAIRMAN TOUHEY: Thank you, Dan. 20 Adam, before you give your report, 21 let me just in closing say this. 22 It's been about a year ago since 23 we -- the first question was whether we, the 24 new members of this Commission would even 25 understand the planning process, because we GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 29 1 have not, from a perspective, we have any 2 backgrounds. You have practitioners like Eddie 3 McKenna who cared about rebuilding Red Bank; 4 you have Dr. Pruitt who cares about higher 5 education and urban redevelopment; I've spent 6 most of my life in urban revitalization and 7 housing. 8 I think what's clear that the 9 Governor has given a vision and provided 10 leadership; and today what we're showing is 11 that unity. We're very serious about this 12 issue. The Commission was created to deal with 13 the difficulty of moving a plan forward. I 14 know that I have relied on all the Commission 15 members in very late hours of discussions and 16 conversations on how we would implement the 17 plan. 18 John referred to it as the starting 19 process; I really do refer to getting close to 20 the finish line, because we are now, I think, 21 giving one common mission, one commitment to 22 make this happen and to implement it. And I'm 23 proud to serve with all of you as it relates to 24 this. And it is not easy. You can just take 25 my emails over the last year and realize how GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 30 1 many emails I've gotten outside of my business 2 regarding what is "Smart Growth", what is the 3 plan, what are you doing, what could you be 4 doing. 5 I think Governor McGreevey is the 6 leader in this, and I'm proud to serve this 7 Commission. 8 With that I'll turn it over to 9 Adam. 10 MR. ZELLNER: Thank you. 11 I'm going to spend a minute just 12 outlining the process a little bit, but before 13 I do, I just want to thank, number one, the 14 staff of the office of Smart Growth for all the 15 work that they've done in working with the 16 other staff members in pulling all this data 17 together. And to just reemphasize, I think 18 what everyone needs to recognize for the first 19 time is that the State Plan is a wonderful 20 document, went through a lot of work, a very 21 good bottom's up document. The one thing that 22 it really missed was it really didn't connect 23 to the State's resources. Everybody has heard 24 me use that hour glass descriptive of state 25 resources and local planning. GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 31 1 But what can happen really here for 2 the first time, and really what I want to 3 commend everyone and all the staff and all the 4 Commissioners and everyone whose done so much 5 work, you really for the first time have all 6 the state resources coming into one place so 7 that we can show visually, spacially what our 8 priorities are. Where our permits, where our 9 funding, where our roads are going to be, so 10 that local governments for the first time 11 understand where we as a State are coming in. 12 Together in one place, easy to read, easy to 13 predict. It is the first time we are seeing 14 connection between the State and its billions 15 of dollars n resources and permits and mayors 16 and council people and freeholders who actually 17 control land use in the State. 18 So I just want to commend everybody 19 for making that happen. And today quickly 20 outline for you all the process we will be 21 taking over the next year-and-a-half to make 22 sure this happens. 23 As folks have described to you, 24 there's been a variety of "Smart Growth" 25 efforts that have gone on over the last year. GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 32 1 DEP, Agriculture, DOT and many others have 2 worked very hard to come up with plans. 3 They've done a series of meetings in different 4 counties. They have done IPRs, Interested 5 Party Reviews. And we have now a lot of data. 6 A wonderful blueprint, if you will. 7 Over the coming months the office 8 of Smart Growth will be working with all of the 9 different folks, the different staff members in 10 these departments to gather all that data. By 11 September the 15th it is our hope to have it 12 all into the office of Smart Growth so we can 13 then spend the next month, two months 14 organizing that data; taking it from the mirco 15 and beginning to look at it from a more macro 16 perspective; and putting it together in one 17 place so that our partners in land use, our 18 mayors and our counties can have one source to 19 access that data. 20 So from now until September we will 21 be working to get all that information in. 22 From September to about mid November we will be 23 taking it, organizing it, putting it down. 24 I've said to people that what you have 25 collected is a wonderful picture of a lot of GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 33 1 different micro situations; this town has this 2 concern; this town has this concern. Our hope 3 is to take that all back, put it in one place, 4 take a step back and say, okay, now that we've 5 seen the micro, let's look at the macro policy 6 issues that will come out of all of these 7 comments. 8 Organize it, send it back out in 9 mid November to our partners, our municipality 10 and county governments to let them know what 11 the State's priorities are. And with the clear 12 understanding that we will be coming out to 13 start a Cross-Acceptance Process with them to 14 negotiate this data so that they understand, 15 one, what the State priorities are. Two, that 16 there is a process, an open process to deal 17 with this. And three that there will be a time 18 line in which people can come to the 19 municipalities, counties, the private sector, 20 public sector, interested parties, and we will 21 be able to accumulate data, both from the 22 department's perspective - and David, again, to 23 your concern - the different private sector, 24 the different projections, the different 25 numbers so we can for the first time GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 34 1 communicate to the counties and municipalities 2 what it is that they should be looking at. And 3 we will begin a bottom-up process, 4 Cross-Acceptance, a/k/a Cross-Acceptance, where 5 we will go out, work from the bottom up, and 6 come together with one State Plan that clearly 7 shows where the State is and clearly shows 8 where the local governments are. 9 So there are copies available up 10 front, I believe, on the desk as you walk in, 11 copies of the time line. But that basically 12 runs us through March; and in March of 2004 we 13 will begin basically the year-long process of 14 coming out, talking to each county, negotiating 15 this map, and finally coming out with one 16 finalized State Plan Map that will be bottom up 17 and top down together, cross-accepted and 18 finalized in 2005. 19 So that is our plan, and that gives 20 you the basic outline of where we are today. 21 CHAIRMAN TOUHEY: Thanks, Adam, 22 very much. 23 Adam, do you want to give the 24 Planning Implementation Committee before we 25 open up to the public? GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 35 1 MR. ZELLNER: The PIC is actually 2 meeting tomorrow. 3 CHAIRMAN TOUHEY: Public comments, 4 and when you please come up to the front to 5 speak at the mike, please tell us who you are 6 and where you're from. 7 MS. McINTOSH: My name is Pam 8 McIntosh. I'm with the Association of New 9 Jersey Environmental Commission. 10 I'd first like to make one comment; 11 just to urge you that while you're doing all 12 this hard work, the process to amend the plan, 13 that you don't forget about the plan 14 limitations, or plan endorsements, and that you 15 continue to make that a high priority. 16 CHAIRMAN TOUHEY: Absolutely. 17 MS. McINTOSH: Then one comment I 18 have about the process you have laid out here. 19 I'm just wondering from November 15th to 20 January 15th the county and municipalities have 21 two months to provide you comments back. And 22 there's not really a process laid out where the 23 public gets to have input at that point into 24 the process. So it seems like a lack of public 25 input then, that also then when you go back out GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 36 1 with the map later for Cross-Acceptance that 2 you're kind of going to be rehashing out what 3 would be done then. 4 So I'm kind of wondering why that's 5 not going through a map amendment process as 6 provided for in the rules? 7 CHAIRMAN TOUHEY: I'll respond to 8 that, and I'll let Adam follow up. 9 We saw the Cross-Acceptance Process 10 as the processes opening up to the public. The 11 hard work prior to that is really data 12 information, goals and wishes, projections; all 13 of the things that hopefully will be ironed out 14 before we go out to do Cross-Acceptance. That 15 doesn't mean that the public will be denied any 16 access. Cross-Acceptance is then the final 17 public input as related to where it will go. 18 MS. McINTOSH: Thank you. 19 MR. KIRCHHOFFER: Don Kirchhoffer 20 from New Jersey Conservation Foundation. 21 It's wonderful hearing all of the 22 generals speak, and I endorse everything you 23 say. It gives me great hope for the future. 24 I'd like, however, to talk just briefly about 25 the view from the fox hole as to what happens GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 37 1 when you do this. And I'm happy to do this to 2 Cabinet Members because I'm quick to then say 3 that I made this suggestion several times 4 before, and I'm getting used to rejection from 5 this Commission, but I'd like to try with the 6 Commissioners. 7 I so strongly urge you not to write 8 a new plan. Charlie Kuperus should know how 9 much time I felt, as I sat through all those 10 meetings last time, he spent going over the 11 existing part of the plan which was not 12 necessary. You're going through all this 13 preliminary stuff; it seems to me that when you 14 do that, you should be able to isolate the 15 problems that exist in the plan and focus your 16 attention to the Cross-Acceptance to the issues 17 that come up before the plan. Instead of -- 18 COMMISSIONER BASS LEVIN: That is 19 what we are doing, just so you know. 20 MR. KIRCHHOFFER: You're not going 21 to write a new plan? 22 COMMISSIONER BASS LEVIN: No. 23 MR. KIRCHHOFFER: Oh, okay. Bye. 24 CHAIRMAN TOUHEY: Jeffrey. 25 MR. TITTEL: Jeff Tittel. New GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 38 1 Jersey Sierra Club. 2 I just wanted to come forward and 3 thank everybody for all their hard work; and 4 probably don't realize how much work you really 5 have ahead of you, as someone who's been 6 through two Cross-Acceptance and actually go 7 back to the old State Plan in the 1970s. 8 But I wanted to bring something 9 forward, because I was listening earlier and 10 I've heard a lot of good words, a lot of good 11 wishes and hopes for the future of New Jersey. 12 So I wanted to bring forward a copy of the 1936 13 State Plan called "Second Annual Report of 14 Progress". And the reason I wanted to bring it 15 forward is because when you read this report 16 you will see, or hear many similar statements. 17 What was interesting about this 18 plan was that they talked about trying to 19 protect our two million acres of farmland. 20 Protect our cities from degrading. Cleaning up 21 Passaic River. Our high property taxes and how 22 lack of government coordination creates high 23 property taxes. The inadequacy of municipal 24 zoning because it goes after immediate needs 25 and doesn't think of the future. The haphazard GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 39 1 zoning along highway corridors waiting for 2 traffic; and the having to widen existing 3 roads. The conflicts between towns and the 4 lack of regional planning. 5 It also talks about some of the 6 goals as to educate the public officials about 7 planning needs, and to coordinate and foster 8 cooperation between different bodies of 9 government at the state, county and local 10 level. Cooperation with the Natural Resources 11 Committee - they didn't have DEP back then - in 12 making sure that we protect our inventory of 13 water resources. As well as trying to come up 14 with ways to protect our ocean front and the 15 problems that are addressed along the ocean 16 front. Framing legislation that will support 17 and implement the State Plan. Cooperation with 18 the Public Works. Agencies within the 19 government, especially sewers and highways. 20 And on and on. 21 And what's sort of interesting 22 about this document, it also comes up with many 23 different solutions and ways to go forward. 24 And the reason that I bring it forward is that 25 this was a really wonderful plan. It's amazing GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 40 1 how current it currently is. They use 2 different words; I mean, they called it 3 scattered development; haphazard zoning and 4 planning instead of the words we use today 5 called sprawl. It talks about building a more 6 efficient and thorough way of having our 7 development go forward. 8 But the problem was that it never 9 went anywhere. And that with the best 10 intentions of Governor Hoffman at the time, the 11 State Plan died with the next administration. 12 And so as you go forward with Cross-Acceptance 13 remember keeping and holding public support is 14 critical. Sometimes when you get involved with 15 Cross-Acceptance and there's pressure coming 16 from municipalities and counties and state 17 senators, remember that the public is an 18 integral part of that. And that without the 19 public support State Plan could end up like 20 this State Plan. 21 And we will be there, as we've been 22 through all other Cross-Acceptance; we want it 23 to work and make it happen because we can not 24 wait another 60 years to see something happen 25 in New Jersey; we don't have the time. GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 41 1 One thing that is sort of 2 interesting in this; it talked about the amount 3 of vacant land in certain counties. And said 4 that because of haphazard and scattered zoning 5 in Middlesex County that they're going to grow 6 by 350,000 people over the next 40 years. And 7 guess what; they did. The numbers were 8 actually right on target. It went from 212,000 9 to 560,000 in their projections, which is about 10 where Middlesex County is today. And 11 unfortunately we don't have two million acres 12 of farmland today. 13 So time is of the essence. But 14 remember, you have to make sure that the public 15 supports here. That when you do not only 16 Cross-Acceptance, that you make sure you 17 protect those resources that the people of New 18 Jersey treasure. That when you do planned 19 endorsement that it has meaning; that it's not 20 a short trip or a quick brush because you're 21 trying to have municipal support. Because 22 you're here to protect the resources of the 23 State of New Jersey, whether they're natural or 24 financial. And we need to go forward in a 25 quick way. We also have to go forward in a GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 42 1 strong and prudent way to make sure that in 2 this process that the State's interests, as 3 well as the public's interest are protected. 4 CHAIRMAN TOUHEY: Thank you, Jeff. 5 And we do appreciate your support and look 6 forward to working with you as we go through 7 this. And it might make you feel better; as 8 part of our orientation we got copies of that 9 plan and went through a complete day of the 10 history of the State Plan. 11 MR. TITTEL: Thank you. 12 MR. DALLESSIO: Good morning, Mr. 13 Chairman and members of the State Planning 14 Commission. I'm Tom Dallessio, New Jersey 15 Director of the Regional Plan Association. 16 I'd like to first thank you all for 17 this meeting. This is terribly important. I 18 appreciate the activity and the participation 19 of the Cabinet Members and the members of the 20 public in this committee meeting. This setting 21 also is very important; it shows the gravity of 22 the situation, the importance why New Jersey 23 needs a State Plan. You take a look around 24 you, you see the pictures of the beauty of New 25 Jersey. There are a number of places in New GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 43 1 Jersey that still look like this; particularly 2 on the Highlands, in the Pinelands, even some 3 areas of the Meadowlands and other parts of 4 State. We need make sure that the State Plan 5 continues to work for all of us in New Jersey. 6 I'd like to also send a personal 7 welcome to Curtis Fisher. Having sat in that 8 seat for a while, I know how difficult it can 9 be. So I wish you well, and feel free to give 10 me a call. I may not have very good advice for 11 you, but at least I can commiserate. So feel 12 to free to do that. 13 To the other members of the 14 Commission I'd like to ask you to think about 15 your place in history. This is terribly 16 important. We do have a State Plan. I took to 17 heart the words of both John Eskilson and Tim 18 Touhey. It is in some ways the beginning, but 19 in some ways you are getting close to the 20 finish line. But the most important thing is 21 to remember that this is a plan that needs to 22 continue to evolve. That there will be people 23 beyond you and me that will be here in New 24 Jersey that will live in New Jersey, work here, 25 play here, but also serve on State Planning GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 44 1 Commissions, and we need to make sure that that 2 is the plan that continues to evolve. 3 I think about the State Plan the 4 way I think about the way the great poet Bruce 5 Springsteen talks about in Thunder Road, he 6 says, "She ain't a beauty, but she's all right, 7 and that's all right with me". So let's think 8 about the State Plan I guess in that sense; 9 make it better if we can, and to work towards 10 that. 11 Last a suggestion for you. I guess 12 two suggestions. One is to continue to work on 13 implementation. We are thrilled to be part of 14 efforts such as the Mayors Institute to help 15 towns deal with growth issues; the "Hope Smart 16 Growth" project, and some of the other projects 17 we're working on. We were pleased to comment 18 on the "Big Map" rules. We are very pleased to 19 see this is where we are today. And I think 20 that that discussion was healthy and 21 important. 22 But last to say that I think there 23 are opportunities to move forward. We need to 24 think about ways to make sure that state 25 agencies can continue to implement the State GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 45 1 Plan. That the public is involved, and that 2 this remain a high priority issue. The 3 visibility of this Commission and of the Plan 4 needs to be raised. And one way to do that 5 possibly is to look at your targets in the 6 current State Plan, and to continue emphasize 7 those targets. 8 We are making great strides in the 9 effort to preserve farmland, open space and 10 historic structures; 300,000 acres towards a 11 million acre goal. You have that goal in your 12 Plan. You need to continue to talk about 13 that. I think you also need to talk about the 14 centers, and the amount of growth in planning 15 areas one and two, and in centers three, four 16 and five. Continue to talk about that, 17 publicize it, engage the newspapers and 18 others. Because I liken this process to the 19 recycling process. Recycling really works 20 because all of us make it work. But most 21 importantly because the children want us to 22 make it work. 23 And lastly to say that we need to 24 engage our children in the State Planning 25 effort, and remind them that this is their GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 46 1 future. It's really important for us to leave 2 a better place for them. 3 Thank you. 4 CHAIRMAN TOUHEY: Thank you, Tom. 5 Other comments from the public? 6 Again, let me thank all of the 7 Cabinet Members for attending this meeting. To 8 show the unity that we have regarding this, and 9 let the process begin. We appreciate it. 10 Can I have a motion to adjourn? 11 DR. McKENNA: So moved. 12 CHAIRMAN TOUHEY: Second? 13 MR. ESKILSON: Second. 14 CHAIRMAN TOUHEY: All in favor? 15 Aye. 16 Thank you everyone. 17 (Whereupon, the hearing was 18 concluded at 11:55 a.m.) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 47 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I, KAREN L. DeLUCIA, License No. XI01888, 9 a Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary 10 Public of the State of New Jersey, do hereby 11 certify the foregoing to be a true and accurate 12 transcript of my original stenographic notes 13 taken at the time and place hereinbefore set 14 forth. 15 16 17 18 19 20 ____________________________________ 21 Karen L. DeLucia, CSR 22 23 Dated: MAY 29, 2003 24 25 GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES